Curse

Betrayer of Wind · Jun 17, 2009, 02:36 AM // 02:36

Heroes didnt killed GW,they did killed most pugs,which is very diferent.

Me and my guild teams up everynight for events,and heroes allow us more flexibilily when we're lacking people for it or just need it set up fast.
Blamming heroes for killing pugs is convenient,but untrue.
If the average quality of players for pugging were halfway decent,heroes wouldnt be so desirable.

Kook~NBK~ · Jun 17, 2009, 05:50 AM // 05:50

Y'all wanna know what really killed PUGs? It wasn't heroes! Everyone jumped all over the option to use heroes because of all the bad experiences with PUGs and not-so-hot henchmen. Here's a list of several ways the players themselves killed the PUG:

1. Selfishness - Back in the day, people would group up for skill-capping excursions. It didn't take long for selfish jerks to join the PUG, cap their skill, and bail on the rest of hte group.

2. Ego - Having a party leader (or member[s]) who are so high on themselves, they insist that they know the mission inside and out and will be the first to leave the PUG when things go bad because they wouldn't stand to be corrected and their mistake caused the fail.

3. Uncoordination - How many times have you been in a PUG where people head off in different directions? How often do you see in PUGs nobody calling targets and everyone's fighting a different foe? This is NOT a recipie for success.

4. The Pansy - Ohhh! I died (usually because they did something stupid)! This group sucks! I'm outta here! Stupid monks!

5. Leechers - Surprise! This is not a new phenomenon in PvP arenas. It's been going on since Prophecies only days.

6. Got To Go! - Homework, dinner time, bed time, chores, being grounded. Parents / Spouse is making me get off the internet. The list goes on and on. For most of it, the leaver should have known better than to start a mission or quest so close to when it's almost time to go do some RL stuff. EDIT: RL comes first. Take care of your business, then come play. And of course, unexpected things come up - family friends or relatives dropping in, etc. No help for that stuff.

I'm sure there are many other human-caused crap that make PUGGING an un-fun experience. But I think these are a pretty good representation of the reasons WHY people would rather use H/H than go with a PUG

snaek · Jun 17, 2009, 06:11 AM // 06:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by daesu

The underlying assumption to that is, someone from the team would be able to provide good and valid feedback to the failed player(s) who would receive the feedback gladly. Often, some people would just rage quit and the team simply dissolves. No feedback and no lessons learnt.

x% chance is better than 0% chance.

Axel Zinfandel · Jun 17, 2009, 06:12 AM // 06:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kook~NBK~

Y'all wanna know what really killed PUGs? It wasn't heroes! Everyone jumped all over the option to use heroes because of all the bad experiences with PUGs and not-so-hot henchmen. Here's a list of several ways the players themselves killed the PUG:

1. Selfishness - Back in the day, people would group up for skill-capping excursions. It didn't take long for selfish jerks to join the PUG, cap their skill, and bail on the rest of hte group.

2. Ego - Having a party leader (or member[s]) who are so high on themselves, they insist that they know the mission inside and out and will be the first to leave the PUG when things go bad because they wouldn't stand to be corrected and their mistake caused the fail.

3. Uncoordination - How many times have you been in a PUG where people head off in different directions? How often do you see in PUGs nobody calling targets and everyone's fighting a different foe? This is NOT a recipie for success.

4. The Pansy - Ohhh! I died (usually because they did something stupid)! This group sucks! I'm outta here! Stupid monks!

5. Leechers - Surprise! This is not a new phenomenon in PvP arenas. It's been going on since Prophecies only days.

6. Got To Go! - Homework, dinner time, bed time, chores, being grounded. Parents / Spouse is making me get off the internet. The list goes on and on. For most of it, the leaver should have known better than to start a mission or quest so close to when it's almost time to go do some RL stuff.

I'm sure there are many other human-caused crap that make PUGGING an un-fun experience. But I think these are a pretty good representation of the reasons WHY people would rather use H/H than go with a PUG

I agree with everything except number 6. Shit happens, and frankly anyone who bitches about people leaving for RL stuff need to seriously get out and find a life.

On the topic of hereos though, heroes did not kill Guild wars. frankly, although it's a dead concept, I love the idea of full party of heroes. I hate dealing with the dead weight of henchies who do a half assed job.

Also, on the topic of H/H "making Guild Wars a single player game", most MMO's are a "single player game.", or have the ability to be played that way. Lets be honest here, could you imagine if Guild Wars FORCED you do party with people? Even moreso then the old Prof. days? I'd be a ridiculous nightmare.

zwei2stein · Jun 17, 2009, 06:31 AM // 06:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kook~NBK~

1. Selfishness - Back in the day, people would group up for skill-capping excursions. It didn't take long for selfish jerks to join the PUG, cap their skill, and bail on the rest of hte group.

Yep, that sucked. Especially during missions.

(Thirsty River flashback ... Ranger boss is down. w/r uses cap signet to get his elite and leaves. Right when missions is 2 minutes from end.)

Or with missions bonuses. It was quite common see someone bail out right after bonus was done. It was great to see that fixed in subsequent campaigns: Bonuses awarded only when mission was completed.

Kook~NBK~ · Jun 17, 2009, 06:50 AM // 06:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

I agree with everything except number 6. Shit happens, and frankly anyone who bitches about people leaving for RL stuff need to seriously get out and find a life.

Thanks for missing my point completely. RL always comes first, and it should. And that's what's irritating, having someone join your party when they should KNOW that they've got real life obligations that need tending too. (homework, dinner, chores -those things do NOT fall into the category of "shit happens.")

the_jos · Jun 17, 2009, 07:21 AM // 07:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kook~NBK~

Thanks for missing my point completely. RL always comes first, and it should. And that's what's irritating, having someone join your party when they should KNOW that they've got real life obligations that need tending too. (homework, dinner, chores -those things do NOT fall into the category of "shit happens.")

That's one of the reasons I stopped pugging for a long time.
And I didn't play long stuff with guildies either.
My GF was having some RL problems and I knew there was a possibility I was called to help her out. Usually she would leave and it would go ok for an hour or so, after that there was the risk of panic attacks.
It's half/half in the 'shit happens' category, since I would only be called about 1/4 of the time and most of those times we would just talk by phone and she would be ok for the rest of the evening.
But sometimes I had to get my car and get over to her evening-school asap.

Same with two of my officers. They recently got a baby so one of them has to afk from time to time.
It's ok with a guild team (we know about it), but we rather not play long stuff with randoms for that reason.

bungusmaximus · Jun 17, 2009, 07:27 AM // 07:27

I Miss TOPK speedclears ><. As for general pve, it became too easy for me, so I can't be bothered with taking people along. Besidees that, I can fight like the best of them, but my memory fails when it comes to mission objectives, or just simply finding the way. Hell I even get lost in the frigging WILDS lol.

I'm not a good person to PUG with, I don't like leading teams, and I stay clear of other PUGs because they want me to run bad tank/spank bars.

When I feel like meeting others: PvP
When I feel misanthropic: PvE

Abedeus · Jun 17, 2009, 07:34 AM // 07:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

pve
fact: heroes turned guild wars into a single player game
opinion: this is either good or bad depending on what type of gamer you are

BZZT WRONG

Try single-playering elite areas or many of the hard mode dungeons. With only 3 heroes and 4 henches. Guilds still go in 7-8 people thanks to PvE skills and the fact, that they only take skilled people instead of a PuG moron,

toocooltang · Jun 17, 2009, 07:39 AM // 07:39

Hero's made PVE better. Now Me, one or two friends can do ANYTHING in game. We all add our heros and customize them to counter whatever the AI is running, for the mission/vanquish/elite area etc. It's great, because back in the proph only day there wasnt a group forming in every town to do the mission, often times it was just you and a friend plus some very poor henchmen. Hero's are awesome.

Daesu · Jun 17, 2009, 08:08 AM // 08:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

BZZT WRONG

Try single-playering elite areas or many of the hard mode dungeons. With only 3 heroes and 4 henches. Guilds still go in 7-8 people thanks to PvE skills and the fact, that they only take skilled people instead of a PuG moron,

QFT.

I wonder why people would complain about multiplayerism being dead unless they belong to really BAD guilds who are not supportive and dont play with them.

The biggest problems with PUGs is not the lack skill, not the lack of good builds, not even the lack knowlege about the game, the biggest problem is their attitude. Leaving the mission after they have capped, going afk, not co-operating, etc. The solution shouldn't be to nerf heroes and force everyone to party these kind of people. It should be educating these people to change their behavior for the better, otherwise no good guild would want them.

If you are a good player, you should be able to find a good guild. Unless you are anti-social, and difficult to get along, then you shouldn't be coming here to QQ about heroes in the first place.

bungusmaximus · Jun 17, 2009, 09:58 AM // 09:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

BZZT WRONG

Try single-playering elite areas or many of the hard mode dungeons. With only 3 heroes and 4 henches. Guilds still go in 7-8 people thanks to PvE skills and the fact, that they only take skilled people instead of a PuG moron,

Usually I team up with my other anti-social friend and we clear everything with a customized hero build. But yeh, you need at least 1 extra human.

I'm sure dungeons are doable with H/H, but patience isn't one of my virtues.

SurrealFi · Jun 17, 2009, 10:02 AM // 10:02

Heroes did Not kill the game.

Let me tell you about my night: I was bored and there were no guildies online to play with, so I logged on my monk and went of to do some DTSC. Sure enough, there is a 7/8 party waiting for another 600 so I join and off we go. I get my bonds, pays 100g to get my kurzick buff and all of a sudden I see the loading screen to Eternal again. Someone had forgotten the 100g and re entered without asking anyone if he or she could give/lend some money. Sigh. A 600 leaves/ragequit and we have to wait five minutes to get another one.

Aight, we get back out, everything is fine for about 3 minutes.. except there are two people wanting to go the same path. They start some namecalling and b*tching and the rest of us simply moves on to our own paths to actually save some time. And voila, about five minutes and the two 600s are still at it, one leaves... and a second one leaves.. and a third.. Get the picture?

I still got some faith in the GW PuG, so I move on to ToA to catch a "exp" FoW pug heading down. We got a group, everyone payed for the cons and I scroll us down as decided. Cons gets on... the two terras head off.. and the Main Tank simply run straight in to all the groups surrounding the RoJs and the poor UA, and heads back to us.. Only he doesnt stop to make a nice ball or w/e, he keeps on going and runs straight through the monk group and ofc kills every single one of us. That run didnt get finished either.

Oh, well, stuff like that happens sometimes, right? So, I'm still in the mood to play so I head to Umbral to go VSF farming, got myself in to a group as RoJ and we're waiting for a perma. After a couple of minutes we get one who assures us he dont need any of the alco or sweets freely given, he's "pro". With a sigh of relief we kick start and soon we're face to face with that ugly wall keeping us away from the chest. The perma is good, I mean really good, and shows up on the other side of the wall in no time and has Thommis with him... And hell breaks loose.
As most people know the earth elementalists on the other side of the wall can be a pebble in the HBs shoe if we dont get rid of it fast enough, I simply call out the warden to make everyone aware he's there. And another one calls a Zealot.. another one calls a Demolisher and ofc someone just have to call out Thommis. We didnt kill a single thing since everyone had the need to call.. And we kept dying because of the freaking warden aswell. 17 minutes into the run, the perma leaves, what a surprice. :-)

I logged off and swore never to pug again.

bungusmaximus · Jun 17, 2009, 10:21 AM // 10:21

Surreal, this post is full of epic truth lol. Ever tried PUGing Urgoz' Warren? I so desperately wanted that longbow back then lol. Imagine being in a PUG for 3+ hours. The only good team I ever joined there was a couple of guildies that needed a monk.

We rushed through HM in a breeze and it was also fun because they were nice people. I tried some HA infuse build against these nasty hammer wardens and it worked like a charm, ohhh, everything was a match made in heaven.

The other 55 PUGs however......

I DID get the bow though

wotah · Jun 17, 2009, 10:47 AM // 10:47

Nerf shadow form and all that shiznit that is killing this game.
You just use builds and go through the elite areas in 20 mins....
Nerf Shadow form=More challenging game.

Highlander Of Alba · Jun 17, 2009, 10:51 AM // 10:51

Heros did not kill G/W as many have said before me.

PUGS ..geeze

A little e.g Only yesterday I was taking one of my chars throu some of Prof

On one of my accounts....I offer to take 2 guys with me,, remember its the Wilds not far into the game .(take my heros to be quicker to run through mission)

One low level joins and happy for the help...A Paragon Joins up and demands yes demands for me to ping my heros and me...lolz. before we go... Kicked the guy and took a hench, my god its the Wilds easy to do.

So never say heros killed GW ....

jjs80 · Jun 17, 2009, 11:07 AM // 11:07

Heroes gave Gw a new life. Wonderfull variety of different strategies became available. For me and my companion heroes were something we had hoped desperately ever we started playing Guildwars.

Why?

Because of the all pug-related problems already mentioned in this thread, but also for some new ones... Back in the days pugging was common and almost must. There was plenty of players available for pug-lovers and it created arrogant atmosphere amongst the puggers. Discrimination based on character-class, attribute line or secondary class was common.

For those who dont understand what i refer:

me and my companion played prophecies with 2 different sets of chars.

E/mo + Ra/mo and Me/Ne+Wa/Ne

E/mo+Ra/mo was often ok until the pug told E/mo is earth or water elementalist and Ra/mo is focused on interrupting. back in days you in pug you were supposed to damage, otherwise you are a burden to the team. For ele it was fire or kick out of the team. For ranger it was easier, but who wants to play, when your girl/boyfriend is kicked out?

But that was little. With many pugs earth - ele was ok, especially, when there was a short of monks. The other thing was, the pugs sucked(which is stated in so many posts before this one) and playing them was quite hidious.we used to say to each others: Alesia might be stupid, but at least she is predictable one.

The real thing about pug arrogance came along with....me/ne

When applying to the pugs we had use tactic: warrior goes first and convinces everyone, that me/ne is actually a good character. Sometimes it worked, mostly not. "mesmers dont belong to pve". "no noobs" "you can come, but not mesmer" "could mesmer bring some other char" and my all time favourite "this is difficult mission and you would make us all fail". Yep. That pretty much summarizes it all.

So dear puggers. You told me and my comp since the day one, we werent good enough to you. Message was well-understood and we played with guildies, friends and henchies. Always hoping some day we could have customisable henchies that are always there, even when our guildies and friends arent. And when nightfall came....we did.

Heroes gave us a lot amusement.

Arduin · Jun 17, 2009, 11:19 AM // 11:19

SurrealFi, your post is all about farming. Farming which is done with pretty static builds and static tactics, as fast as possible. FoWSC, DTSC, UWSC... it's all the same.

The problem with that is, as soon as something goes not as planned (wipe, someone disconnects, etc.), people get pissed off, seeing their time ticking away, and leave. Because they can either spend half an hour clearing with a 'sub-par' team, or they can zone back to town and get another team, which clears the area twice in 30 minutes.

SurrealFi · Jun 17, 2009, 11:54 AM // 11:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arduinna

SurrealFi, your post is all about farming. Farming which is done with pretty static builds and static tactics, as fast as possible. FoWSC, DTSC, UWSC... it's all the same.

The problem with that is, as soon as something goes not as planned (wipe, someone disconnects, etc.), people get pissed off, seeing their time ticking away, and leave. Because they can either spend half an hour clearing with a 'sub-par' team, or they can zone back to town and get another team, which clears the area twice in 30 minutes.

Are you trying to excuse the people making other peoples game experience a hell?

This is, in fact, a description of One Single Night. Which I happened to want to play like this (Not the fail part tho). I could've told you about the numerious times when someone have logged off in the middle of a dungeon, leeched a mission, screamed at everyone else what to do and leaves when it wont work his way, refused to pay for a run, name callings, ragequits.. But I didnt. :-) Can you understand why? First of all, it would've taken me all night getting everything down. ;-)

It's a gamble everytime you PuG, no matter what it is you're about to do - Farm, Mission, Running: Whatever, and most people are fed up with the risk and move on with heroes, henchies and (guild)mates.

Longasc · Jun 17, 2009, 12:04 PM // 12:04

There seems to be a trend that indicates that players do not like to play with other players. For the reasons mentioned by several posters.

Heroes are then not the reason for the decline of PUGS/GW, but just show the shift towards single player + AIs gaming.

ANet even said this, they mentioned "buddy gaming", two friends and their 6 heroes playing together.